Special Ops: The Knizia Mount Rushmore (ft. Nick Murray from Bitewing Games)

What if you had to carve Reiner Knizia’s legacy into stone—just four games to represent a career that spans genres, decades, and thousands of tables? We are pumped to be joined by Bitewing Games’ Nick Murray to help us do exactly that, starting wide with party‑ready card games, heavyweight strategy, and auction masterclasses, then narrowing to a final four that balance impact, accessibility, and pure design brilliance.

We revisit Essen stories and the reality of publishing while putting big ideas under the microscope: why The Quest for El Dorado makes deckbuilding intuitive by tying every card to the map; how Ra fuses auctions with push‑your‑luck and tempo in a way that still feels unmatched; why Tigris & Euphrates delivers multi‑layered conflict and genius “weakest‑color” scoring that drives desperate, thrilling plays; and how MLEM: Space Agency shows Knizia’s lighter side can still create unforgettable tension and table talk through shared risk. Along the way, we weigh Modern Art’s glorious chaos against Ra’s razor‑clean structure, pit Blue Lagoon against Through the Desert for route‑building purity, and spotlight the negotiation fireworks of Zoo Vadis and the point‑salad teeth of Mille Fiori. Lost Cities gets its due as the 20‑minute two‑player gut‑twister couples keep coming back to, and we make space for why small boxes and family‑weight designs matter in a legacy conversation.

By the end, we land on a Mount Rushmore that feels both timeless and alive: The Quest for El Dorado, Ra, Tigris & Euphrates, and MLEM. It’s a mix of deep strategy, elegant auctions, intuitive racing, and joyous dice drama—a snapshot of why Knizia still hooks new players and keeps veterans obsessed. Listen, argue with our picks, and tell us what you’d chisel into the rock.

If you enjoyed this, follow and share the show, and drop a review so more gamers can find it. What would make your Knizia Mount Rushmore?

Chapters

• 0:15 Welcoming Nick Murray Of Bytewing
• 5:17 Essen Stories And Convention Insights
• 7:47 How We’ll Build The Knizia Mount Rushmore
• 7:55 Nomination 1: Tigris & Euphrates
• 9:41 Party Picks And The Llama Suite
• 10:55 Lost Cities And Two-Player Tension
• 12:39 Siege Of Rundar And Co‑op Outliers
• 15:06 Quest For El Dorado And Deckbuilding Reinvented
• 18:24 Ra, Modern Art, And Auction Brilliance
• 22:01 Route Building: Blue Lagoon Vs Through The Desert
• 26:05 Zuvadis And The Art Of Negotiation
• 28:11 Mlem And Dice‑Driven Mayhem
• 32:22 Beowulf/Ego And Epic Push‑Your‑Luck Journeys
• 35:00 Mille Fiori And Point‑Salad Combos
• 37:49 Cutting To A Top Eight
• 41:16 Ra Vs Modern Art: Which Endures?
• 45:40 The Case For Tigris & Euphrates
• 51:10 Sealing The Final Four
• 54:00 Bytewing Teasers And Sign‑Off

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:15

Welcome to the Operation Game Night Podcast, back in better than ever. And joining us today is a very, very special guest, a VIP, so to speak. It's Nick Murray from Bytewing Games. Nick, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00: 0:30

Great. Great. Thanks for having me, you guys. Yeah, I kind of I kind of jumped on last minute and shocked you a little bit. I was actually, I didn't I didn't mention this, but we were just barely watching Home Alone. I was showing my two girls Home Alone for the first time and they were they're pretty into it, and that ended like 10 minutes ago. Perfect. That's why I just jumped on like all of a sudden and uh and shocked you guys, but it was it's for a good cause. So nice. Yeah, and a classic class. Yeah, yeah, it's been a long time since I've seen it, so it was fun to fun to revisit that. Very nostalgic. Very nice.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02

Well, we've got the wet bandits here as well. We've got Clay and Jared. How are you doing, boys?

SPEAKER_04: 1:07

Oh, I'm doing so good. I just want to you know be a fanboy here for a minute. I think I'm a Nick Murray fan more than these guys. I watched all your podcast videos. Um, you know, I even watched a couple of the bits. I have no business watching the bits with you and the guy from All Play, but you guys just talked about such interesting topics about board game production. I'm like, yeah, this is cool. And obviously, we're gonna get into it, but your love for Kenitsia has been something that I've been particularly drawn to. So it's I'm very excited you're here with us.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42

Yeah, no, I appreciate you guys inviting me on. I mean, yeah, definitely Kenitsia Games is very much a rabbit hole that's uh that it sounds like more than one of us has gone down, and uh very fun to to explore his his design catalog for somebody who's so passionate about gaming, very talented at it, been doing it for decades now. It's it's a hobby unto itself to just kind of explore his ludology. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:06

I try I tried to do a little bit of prep work. These two guys, they know me. I'm usually winging it. Uh, I tried to listen to the six episodes. There's probably more than just six episodes on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00: 2:17

I think there's just six, but they are long episodes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:20

You and Scott, which I love. You two have amazing chemistry, by the way. Um Scott's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00: 2:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:27

I I loved it. Uh and I really just reinvigorated my love for Kenitia. Did not listen to all minutes, I will say that. Uh definitely tried to get ready for today. Hopefully, I provide good feedback. But I did wear a little piece of northern Utah lore. I'm not sure if you are familiar with Herms.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

Oh, yeah, I love Herms. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 2:52

Okay. Well, Clay and I will obviously arm wrestle for who Nick loves more at the end of the day. Oh man. Uh, but I am wearing the Herms hat. So I already have plus one uh strength.

SPEAKER_00: 3:06

So yes, for those who don't know, Herms is like a a local brunch place in in Logan. Very good food, yeah. Your choice. Done.

SPEAKER_02: 3:16

All right. Well, my job here is done. I'll probably just be listening the whole time, anyways, because you guys are beautifully um uh just can put Kenitia right where he is on a pedestal, and I I'm just gonna be listening this whole podcast, so I'm excited to get into it.

SPEAKER_01: 3:34

So we've kind of beat around the bush a little bit. Today we are doing our Mount Rushmore of Kennytia games. So what that means is maybe not the best designs, maybe not his most popular, but those that we think are most important to the board gaming sphere. Maybe it they have unique mechanisms that have been carried over into other games. Maybe they have maybe it's just like a game that stands on its own as like a pillar in the board game community. I know we'll talk some of those already, but Nick, how many Kenitsia games would you say that you've played?

SPEAKER_00: 4:05

Yeah, I mean, so if you count the ones that are unpublished that that have been pitched to me at one point or another, I'm definitely over 200 at this point. Oh wow. Um as far as like published games that are known entities, it's probably just under 200. So I either way, it's it's far too many. Actually, I I got to meet Reiner in person um at Essen. This is my first time at Essen this year, and and so I had the pleasure of meeting him and his his team in person. And I brought up to him, like I was like, Yeah, I'm at about 200 of your games played. Um, which honestly, if you talk to most publishers or really anybody, but most publishers who've even worked with him, like that's probably way higher than most publishers have reached. And they were just they were immediately just like, oh, so you only have 600 to go.

SPEAKER_04: 4:50

And I'm like, Oh my god. Yep, that's correct.

SPEAKER_01: 4:54

What a flex.

SPEAKER_00: 4:55

Yeah, it was pretty funny.

SPEAKER_01: 4:57

So yeah, I I went to S in not this past October, the the previous year, and man, that is an overwhelming experience. That is just chaos chaos.

SPEAKER_00: 5:08

Yeah, yeah. Biggest convention in the world. It's just like you you take um, you know, I was just at Pax Unplugged, you take that exhibitor hall, and that's just one of seven, basically. Like just multiply that by seven, and that's that's pretty much Essen. And um, yeah, it's funny because that the first day of our booth, we we got slammed, you know. Everybody comes in and they immediately want to buy um all the new releases on their list before they sell out. So we just got slammed for the first like seven or eight hours, and I I didn't think I was gonna be able to step away, but finally the last hour things slow down a little bit, and I was like, okay, I've got my own list, I'm gonna do the run. But Essen, like they're they're so far ahead of everybody else. They have an app where you can just input all the games you're interested in, and then it'll just give you a route. And it's like, okay, here's the most efficient route through through all these exhibitor halls um to get the games that you want to get. And so I did that loop in like an hour. Wow. And um, yeah, probably walked um a couple miles doing it because it sent me in like a spiral. Uh it's pretty wild. So, but um, yeah, very, very cool show. If you ever get the chance to go, I definitely recommend it. And um, yeah, I think it's best to honestly show up a few days early or stay a few days late and then like check out a bit of Europe too, and just train around because it's it's fun, it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01: 6:25

So yeah, I I had the advantage of living like an hour and a half south, so I drove up there and got to like stay in Dusseldorf and yes, made a whole thing of it. So yeah, what an experience and super overwhelming. Even with an app, it's it's too much. So yeah, we'll have to all convene there someday and and do a speed run of Essen.

SPEAKER_00: 6:45

Yes, yes, good times.

SPEAKER_01: 6:47

Um, okay, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna pull up a spreadsheet and we are going to just go around the horn and list some games that we believe should be under consider under consideration for the Mount Rushmore of games. So Nick, I'm gonna let you start it off with a game that you believe is at least in the top 12 of Kennya games that you think could end up on their Mount Rushmore.

SPEAKER_00: 7:15

Yes. Yeah, well, I gotta I gotta add my favorite in off the bat, Tigerson Euphrates. Um this is um this was at one point ranked number one on Board Game Geek for several years, but it's it's been I think it's been a couple decades since then, but um now I don't think he has a single game in the BGG Top 100. That just shows how far society's fallen. But um my god, is that a true fact? I think so. I think I think T and E got bumped off like a couple of years ago, and uh there hasn't been one on since. Not a single. It doesn't help that Tigris and Euphrates has been out of print for for years now. Um obviously that's about to change uh with the recent announcement from 25th Century Games, which is great. You know, they're they're bringing it back with a bang and with Ian O Tool doing the the raw treatment to Tigris and Euphrates, but yeah, this to me is is one of his masterpieces. Um it's a game that I don't know how if we want to go into depth or if we just want to keep throwing out names, but oh you can you can give it the spiel right now if you want. Yeah, yeah, the quick spiel. So yeah, I mean Tigris and Euphrates, um, it's one of many of his really clever uh tile placement strategy games, but this one um just has so many layers to it strategically, and it has stood the test of time. It came out uh in the 90s, and it's still uh one of the most brilliant games of all time. It kind of has like a an e a bird's eye view of civilization and the rise and fall of of uh nations and such. But um on the on the smaller, kind of the more player scale, I suppose, it's all about um controlling and building up these nations and then ramming them into other nations and and then revolting against leaders and kicking them out and stuff. It's you can make some of the most satisfying, like brilliant maneuvers. Um and there's there's of course like drama with the hidden tiles behind your screen, and when you attack somebody, it's like how many tiles of that color do they have? And and so yeah, I just love it. It's it's one that's you know, it's it's very weird. I think it it can take a play or two to to kind of wrap your head around, but yeah, it just keeps rewarding repeat plays. So Tigers and Euphrates, my first nomination.

SPEAKER_01: 9:23

Wow, what a heavy one to start with, and what a difficult one to spell. Thanks for putting me on the spot like that.

SPEAKER_00: 9:29

Uh yeah, looks like you got it though.

SPEAKER_01: 9:32

Uh I'm gonna go in order that we appear here on the screen. I don't know if you guys see the same order, but Jared, why don't you hit me with your entry into the top 12?

SPEAKER_02: 9:41

Um, I'm obviously not gonna give you as deep of a uh you know background of this one, but I was kind of when I was doing a quick review and thought process, I was going for something my style, something party-like, something more llama, gives you two bang for the bucks because there's a dice llama and a card llama. And I'm just saying it gets the people going, it's so simple and easy, and it represents more than just one game, it represents a whole vibe. You get one llama on that on the uh Mount Rushmore of Kenizia, and it represents more than just one game. So um have a lot of fun playing that. You're you know, you don't have to think too much about it, but there's still a little bit of decision making happening, and it's just a lot of fun. Okay, llama suite. I love that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 10:37

Yeah, llama suite of games. We might have to whittle that down if it makes it to the final four. I don't think it will. Yeah, yeah, you're not gonna do it. It was worth a try, it was worth a shot. Uh Clayton.

SPEAKER_04: 10:47

Yeah, so my first entry into the top 12 is gonna be Lost Cities. I think that Lost Cities might be one of I love it and I hate it because every time I play it, I it's so agonizing just trying to play a card in that game. And I just think that tension is so perfect for a tight little two-player 15-minute game. My wife and I always come back to this. The scoring's interesting. You kind of have to push your luck to decide which colors you want to invest in. And as you're, you know, you know, you're but for people that don't know, you're trying to like form runs of cards in different colors, and you want to start with, you know, the low numbers, you go two, three, four to ten. And if you have the 10 in your hand, you want to build up with the lower numbers first, but you might not have those lower numbers. So there's just these tensions of like, man, how long do I wait to try and get these cards I need to really make this investment pay off? And then there's these wager cards that can double or triple your score if you manage to, you know, get above the 20-point scoring criteria in each of the columns. And then they equally decrease your points if you then bomb it on that row. And you know, I just think that game is such a clever, perfect little two-player design. Um, could have brought in shot and totten here or battle line, but for me, Lost Cities has been the one that I always keep coming back to. So that's my first uh little battle cry here. Nice, great one.

SPEAKER_01: 12:26

I'm going to uh pick a game that might not reach the top of people's list, but I think it's important in Reiner Kenitsia's catalog, and that is Siege of Rundar. Oh, and that is a cooperative tower defense game, kind of unlike Mr. the good doctor Kenitsia. He doesn't do a whole lot of cooperative, doesn't do tower defense really. But Siege of Rundar is important because when he does it, he does it big. And the production on Siege of Runear is amazing. You play inside the box, which represents your kind of battle arena, divided up into sectors where you are these dwarves that are trying to dig yourself out of a collapsed cave or something, out of your realm. And while you're doing that, you're fending off this uh box of game, this game box from encroaching goblins that are trying to kill your dwarves. And I think it's important because he doesn't do things like this very often. You know, you get the you get the auction, you get the route building, you get these different mechanisms that he does, but cooperative cooperative tower defense he does not do very often. And I think it's important it for the cooperative tower defense uh suite of games, genre. Genre, that's what I'm looking for. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 13:47

It's a niche genre.

SPEAKER_00: 13:48

Yes, yes, it is. Yeah, these are good picks. Um a side note for for Siege of Rundar, that's I have good memories of playing that game. Um when I lived in Arizona, I happened to live um very close to the illustrator of that game, who is Andrew Bosley. Yeah, and um got to make friends with him. And I had picked up Siege of Rundar. I don't know if I ordered it um overseas or somehow I acquired it early basically, and he still hadn't received his copy yet. So like I messaged him like, Andrew, let's play. So yeah, one time during during one of like his work days, I just brought it over and we just played Siege of Rundar. I can't remember if we won or not because it's it's kind of a hard game. It's challenging, it's very hard. And uh yeah, it was a lot of fun to play that with him. And and um yeah, I I am a fan of that game. It's got a lot a lot of interesting stuff going on, so make the choices. Yeah, Andrew's a stud. I I love Andrew's great. Um okay, so I guess going along the same lines of uh, you know, Siege of Rune Dar is kind of uh sort of a deck builder style game. It's got a it's got a little bit of that flavor. Oops, sorry, a little bit of that flavor to it. But um, I think one that we can definitely not leave off this list is the quest for El Dorado. Oh series. Yeah, yes, and for a lot of reasons, really. Um there's I I had the chance to interview Reiner like early on when I started working with him and ask him about it. And he's got such a passion and a love for this game, and he's brought it up in other interviews too. I think this is probably one of those one of his most proud creations, especially of recent years. And um basically at the time, you know, somebody eventually showed him Dominion. Um, this was years after it came out, and um, somebody in his circle, and he he talks about it as like it it felt like it was kind of counterintuitive, like there was no um like it was it was very cleverly designed and it's cool the system behind it, but it it doesn't totally make sense, like okay, you're adding things to your deck and you're cycling through it, and like what's the purpose behind it and stuff. And when when he learned it, he felt like maybe there was a more innovative or or um maybe not innovative, but more intuitive way to to introduce deck building to people. And so in his mind, he's like, well, if I designed the game like this, I think I would you know attach it to a a race or or like a map, where if you want to enter the the jungle space, you need a machete to work your way through. If you want to enter the water space, you're gonna need a paddle and a canoe. And so yeah, he kind of just started with like, how do I make deck building more intuitive, more, more approachable? And the result was Quest for El Dorado. And what's interesting on the opposite end of it from the gamer perspective is I think for many years he was still pumping out games, but a lot of them were were more family weight. Um, he was definitely doing a lot more in like the apps and electronic game sphere and stuff. So on like the BGG end of things, the hobbyist end of things, people kind of saw him as like, oh, he maybe he's lost his touch or like you know, he hasn't made a classic amazing game in years and whatever. And so for whatever reason, like what he was doing didn't quite, you know, it was kind of diverging um from what hobbyists were wanting and things like that. But then he comes out with Quest for El Dorado, and I think that really put him back on the map. And people talk about the Rhino Sans, you know, the yeah, the comeback of Kenizia, and most people point to El Dorado as like this is the one that really put him back on the map for hobbyist gamers as well. So um, and I think the game is excellent, especially with the expansions included, and there's just so much content to dig into. Um, I know for um for the US folks it's been frustrating because Ravensburg is the North American publisher of this, and they haven't been supporting the newest expansions. But every time I talk to Randy, he keeps saying, like, oh, they're gonna they're gonna come around and bring out the expansions. So hopefully, you know, things around the corner and and maybe by next year we might get lucky and see like all the content finally come to North America. I've been ordering it from overseas personally, to just uh because I I'm a big fan of that game. So um, yeah, Quest for Elder Auto, that's my pick.

SPEAKER_01: 18:12

Next one worth importing. Great pick. Yeah, very, very nice.

SPEAKER_02: 18:17

Clay introduced me to that one uh month or two ago, and that's what I was gonna say, but that's okay. I'll just go to my next one. Uh Raw. I mean, how can we? I can't believe it took me to the to my number three. I surely I thought I wasn't even gonna get to to raw, but the clanky big bag, when I get my hand into that big bag to get those little uh clanky chits out, um, I absolutely loved it. Uh learned it like three years ago and then never played it until Thanksgiving a couple weeks ago. Last week. Yes. Um but just reminds me of how fun it is, and the idea of like washing away some of those tiles, and some of the tiles stick around. And um it's just like every time you play, it's completely different. And plus us, this is something, uh Nick, that you'll learn about Operation Game Night. We love a big velvety bag. Um, and we're we're still working on trying to get our own bag, Operation Game Night bag. Um, and I think that would be you know top-notch, you know, career goal for me is to have our own bag. But um really had a lot of fun playing this with my boys uh last last week. Um but great art, great uh great experience every time you play it. It's just it's you never know when that red kit's coming out and everyone's going, Oh great experience at the table that I love. So I'm rawing it up.

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

Rain Clay. What you got?

SPEAKER_04: 19:58

There might only Live to be one of these um auction games in the final four, but I gotta throw out I don't know. I I go back and forth between Raw and this game, but modern art is one that I think deserves to be in contention for a Mount Rushmore. I mean, talk about just going all in on auctions. Every turn it's an auction and it's a different auction. Sometimes you're just yelling out prices. You got a guy banging a gavel. Um, sometimes you're secretly auctioning, other times you're just like one-upping each other. So it's got all these different interesting auction variants, and it all kind of lays on this, you know, theme of artists increasing and decreasing over value based on how popular they were in different rounds. So, you know, you kind of have an idea what an artist's paintings might go for at the end of the round, but you know, you can really get people gassed up and you try and sell these paintings for maybe more than they will be worth, and then you get that money. So that that aspect of it where when you're selling the paintings, you get a chance to make money, but then when you're buying paintings, you're hoping you're getting a deal, and at the end of the round, you can sell them back uh because they were popular. I just think this game has always been fun. I love the environment it creates around the table. It's a game where you're engaged with everybody else, and you know what, it's like 40-45 minutes, it's just a winner for me. Uh, a little more raucous than Raw, um, a little probably less tight. I I personally don't know if it's as well designed, but I do enjoy the experience of playing it, and I think it has been important in the board gaming hobby. So I'm throwing out modern art. Nice.

SPEAKER_01: 21:52

Good choice. Okay, I think Reiner is great at route building games, so I am going to put Blue Lagoon. That is my Reiner Kenizia route building game of choice. It is super tight, you can teach it to anybody. You uh put down your uh initial tribe out there, you're trying to reach as many islands as you can, you're trying to race for resources, and just the the map design itself is so perfect that it lends itself to route blocking, a little bit of strategy, you can outmaneuver people, uh, you can sneak away with wins based on the resources that you collect, and then you go into phase two with your encampments and building out from there, and it changes the strategy, it changes the map, it changes everything on that second round. And it's so it's such a great route building game, and I think it's one of the ones that really showcases uh Reiner's ability to do route building the best. So I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_04: 22:56

Now, this is interesting, you know, in in in contention with other games like Through the Desert, you know. I mean Through the Desert is great. I personally I prefer Blue Lagoon, but I think it is um a contentious choice for the Mount Rushmore. Yeah. But personally, for me, I I think I would I like Blue Lagoon better than you know, the old classic Through the Desert.

SPEAKER_01: 23:18

But I think I think Nick would go uh through the desert.

SPEAKER_00: 23:22

Yeah, I think I think through the desert has a slight edge for me. Um I don't know. I it's interesting. You talk to different people and everybody has different takes. Like um Blue Lagoon has the advantage of of um, I guess it's more beginner-friendly, I would say, where um you don't have to set up your your starting, oop, your starting positions um in Blue Lagoon. You just you just go. And your starting positions can be as much as you want, like anywhere and everywhere, and it's during the game. Whereas through the desert, it's like, all right, I'm gonna teach you this new game, and now for the most important decision you'll make this whole game, you're gonna decide where you start. And that can be a little overwhelming. But on the other hand, like Through the Desert has some spicy elements of like you're placing two things per turn instead of just one, and so you can have kind of more of these like sneak attacks where somebody can um, or you've got to be more watchful of like, oh, if somebody can invest their whole turn into this thing, they can kind of you know broach into my territory, and I don't want that to happen, whereas Blue Lagoon, it's it's like slower, but it's it's I don't know. Both games are excellent, so I I can't be mad with either choice.

SPEAKER_01: 24:26

Yeah, I think I think that's what gets me is like you start with an empty map, and it's just place a person somewhere on this hex. And it the open-ended decision right off the bat, it's I think it's just as important as through the desert. You're not like setting up that initial encampment that then you're sprawling out from, but that first route that you start to build is super important to the second round of the game when then you're expanding from your encampment. So yeah, I I think that was what edged it out for me was that it's just so open that first round, and you can kind of just play around with it and see what routes develop and then maximize those routes the second the second round.

SPEAKER_00: 25:06

Yeah, I like that it's split up into two phases where where you're kind of like deciding where to commit your huts, and that's where you spread the second round. It's it's very cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:14

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought I liked rebirth, and then I got Blue Lagoon, and I was like, whoa. But it was very surprising Travis chose Blue Lagoon because last year on the podcast, these two guys pitched me games, and uh I chose Travis's game, which was not Blue Lagoon.

SPEAKER_04: 25:34

So this is I pitched I pitched Jared Blue Lagoon and Travis Travis badmouthed it to try to win to win the pitch, the pitch off.

SPEAKER_01: 25:43

It was all for the sake of the pitch. Okay, gamesmanship, huh? You you gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:48

You know, he he he does his thing, you know, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00: 25:51

Uh Nick, back to you. Okay, uh, we each have one more, right?

SPEAKER_04: 25:56

Yeah, for top 12, yeah. Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 25:58

Okay, well, I'll shamelessly plug one that I've published here, and um, I think it has good enough reason to be on here, though. Uh, this is Zuvadis. Zuvadis is a negotiation game, which is quite different from anything else on this list. Um, definitely feels you know, it's still got that Kenny elegance of like, you get to do one thing on your turn. Here are your, you know, in this case, like four options. Um, and there's there's definitely an action efficiency element to it where it's like, well, if I do this, then I'm falling behind on this, you know. And um, but to me, Zubatis um it has a very special place in my heart. It really, it wasn't the first Kennytia game that we published, but it really um, I think was like the launching pad to to really put us on the map. Um, and it it definitely set the the blueprint for how we approach um publishing Kenitsia games uh after that as well, because this started as a a 1992 game um in uh Quo Vodis. That's you know that game I I stumbled upon it several years ago and played it a couple times and was like, this is really cool, but I could tell on BGG like it was just totally forgotten, like nobody talked about it or anything. But I felt like there were still there's still um you know enough game and enough unique uh of an experience there that it could exist in today's market. And um after my third play, that's kind of when when inspiration struck of like, oh, there's there's more threads here that we could pull on, or like maybe there's more potential that we could explore in the design space here. And that's where I kind of cooked up a whole um SWOT analysis, is what I call it. I I uh I went to for undergrad, um, we were talking about Logan before this, but I went to Utah Utah State University and I was a business administration major, and so I took a lot of business classes, and and the SWOT analysis is like where you just evaluate something based on its strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. And and like I scoured through all the BGG forums for Quilvadis. I looked at the reviews and I came up with this analysis and these ideas, and I presented it all to Reiner and was like, hey, here's what I think we could do to kind of revitalize this design that's been dead for you know a couple decades now. And um luckily he was he was game for you know reworking it essentially and and um taking our feedback based on everybody's experience with it on Board Game Geek and their opinions and stuff and turning it into something even more special. And yeah, it was cool to see like when we when we first revealed this game, we were still kind of a no-name publisher, but um it ended up on the the BGG hotness list right at the top. And it was like, okay, there's definitely an interest here for for this game. And um when Reiner came back with the new developed version too, and even when I was trying it, I was like, holy smokes, this might be one of my favorite games I've ever played now. Like, this is so cool what he's done with it. So, anyways, it's negotiation. You can like you have your own animal abilities and you can't spend them on yourself, you have to um use them as bartering chips basically and be like, I'm gonna spend my ability on you and let you take advantage of my ability, but you're gonna help me in return. And so it definitely is not for everybody if you don't like that amount of social, you know, bartering and and um back and forth and stuff. And and some people can definitely spoil the game for everybody, depending on how they approach it. But uh, it's still one of my favorite games to play. So Zuvadis is my final pick.

SPEAKER_01: 29:34

Nice. That was gonna be my next pick if you didn't take it. So I knew it was gonna end up on here eventually.

SPEAKER_04: 29:39

It does kind of round out the genres, you know. Yeah, it is one that we haven't touched on yet. So that's good. Yeah, great pick. Jared, over to you.

SPEAKER_02: 29:49

Um this one. Uh, I mean, I don't think we've gotten too many now. Push your luck, kind of guys. And Nick, I I did hear you talk about how you you're allergic to cats. So I'm sorry to bring M Lem onto the list here. We had uh ran it back three times on Thanksgiving last week um because it was so fun to try and get those kitties into the deep outer space. Um and just having those little little kitty abilities, and there's kind of like this group like let's do this together, but you're also kind of competing against each other. And again, it's just like so accessible, you're just rolling die. That's all you're really doing. Um, but it's just really fun. Um art is great, and anytime I get to push my luck, and anytime it's closer to the party side of things, that's really touching what Jerry really likes. So I'm throwing M Lem on there um for my last one and trying to get kitties on to the to the uh Mount Rushmore. So we're gonna see what we can do here.

SPEAKER_01: 30:59

And if you're wondering why he calls it M Lem, it's because we were talking about Mlem for weeks on end, and then he once he got it brought to the table, Clay brought it up to his house, or he brought it down to Jared's house. He was like, Oh, there's an M in front of it. So now he says Mlem to Mlem. I call it Mlem. Get it right. God, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04: 31:21

Oh man driving me nuts with that man.

SPEAKER_01: 31:24

Clay, over to you.

SPEAKER_04: 31:25

Yeah, I was honestly gonna go Mlem next. And I know there, Nick, I I think I listened to your it was one one of your top ten games of the year a couple years ago, yeah, whenever it came out. And so I know you have an affinity for this game too. And I just landed this sucker last year at my number two game of all time. Like, does it is it a Kenitsia Mount Rushmore? Probably not, but I mean, we don't have like a dice game on here, and I think you know, he he has dabbled quite a bit in the dice genre.

SPEAKER_00: 31:59

And to me, he's made so many, yeah. Yeah, I agree. This is one of his top ones, right?

SPEAKER_04: 32:04

Yeah, I mean, I just played today with my kids. I mean, uh I've played this game so much, and I've never not enjoyed the experience. So uh kudos on the pick, Jared. Thanks for beating me to it. But um, I guess I'll go just to stroke Nick's Bitewing ego a little bit here. I'm gonna go with um Beowulf the Legend turned into ego. Ego because and again, Beowulf had mixed reception, uh, which is why you it got the SWOT analysis from Bytewing, and you guys definitely gussied it up in ego, and it's beautiful, it cleaned up a lot of things, and I just think there's not many games like this out there. Yeah, in general, it's like an auction game, but I literally I have never played anything where you like just go from thing to thing and like each little thing's different. It's just like a little journey you're going through and kind of managing your hand the whole way through. And it's such an interesting experience. I want more games like this, I want more designs like this. So maybe this is an aspirational um Mount Rushmore for me. I I think other designers and even Kenits himself needs to explore this type of like I I what would you even call this, Nick? Like, what is that type of game?

SPEAKER_00: 33:24

I mean, I I pitch it to people as like an epic push-your-luck auction adventure. Yeah, it's competitive, right? Like you're you're on this in in both Beowulf and Ego, you're on this like journey together, right? And you're progressing through a sequence of events. Um, and in the case of Beowulf, those that sequence doesn't change with ego, it's randomized. But in either case, it's like we're all doing this together, you know, and we're gonna do this event and this event and this event. And like, yeah, it really stood out to me when I played um another auction game like the same week as ego. And I just realized like, wow, there's like no downtime in in ego. Like it's you're just you're just constantly, you know, participating in the next thing and the next thing. And um, yeah, it's I agree, it's very unique, but um, it's also one of my like out of all the games we've published, it's one of my favorite games to play because it's just such a riot, especially at like four and five players, is just such a blast.

SPEAKER_04: 34:22

So yeah, I really want to play it. I've only played it at three um a few times, and I played it at two a couple times, and I played Beowulf at a higher player count. But yeah, I I love like the way that these games are set up, and I am happy to have it here in the top 12.

SPEAKER_00: 34:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 34:43

Great choice. Uh I see that we're missing a bit of set collection on here, and I'm gonna go with uh Millie Fiore. Oh uh, we started with a difficult one to spell. I'm gonna end with a difficult one to spell. Yes. Oh Fiori. Um so I have not played this game a whole lot, uh, but I just remember being super tight that collection, you're like trying to strategize what you need most to maximize your turns.

SPEAKER_04: 35:18

Um I would consider it more of a like a drafting game, kind of almost like a roll and ready draft game. Yeah. Um, where you're going up on different tracks and competing in different areas. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. I just for the sake of categorization.

SPEAKER_01: 35:36

Yeah. Um, but man, I remember that game being so tight and really special. So I'm gonna go with Billy Fiore. Clay, maybe you could help me out with the description a little bit.

SPEAKER_04: 35:46

No, I mean it's it's basically what I just said. You mean you you have a big board and each different area of the board has different ways that you're scoring points, and on your turn, it's like a pick and pass, kind of like Sushi Go. Everybody picks a card, and then you get to take an action on the said little mini game that you chose the card for. Yeah, that's right. And then each mini game kind of interlinks with the other mini games, and you reach certain spots on the track, and you trigger something else on another one, and so you're just you know trying to. It's like a point salad combo-y, yeah, spectacular game. I really like this game too. I do not play it enough for whatever reason. It's just like enough that every time I think I want to play it, I'm like, I don't exactly remember how to play. Yeah, I know I like it, but I it it seems like more of a and I got this thinking expansion which muddied the waters even more. Sure. And then anytime I get an expansion for a game, it inevitably makes it less likely that I'm gonna play the game because I mix all this stuff in there, and then I'm trying to figure out oh man, what's what? And so yeah, this one suffered from me getting the expansion, and now I'm I'm overwhelmed by it.

SPEAKER_00: 37:04

That's how it goes.

SPEAKER_04: 37:06

Expansion overload.

SPEAKER_00: 37:07

Yeah, I like this one a lot too. It's it's definitely, like you said, a point solidity game, but it has teeth. Like, um, you know, what I choose can definitely affect you, and and like you're trying to read each other, read other people and think like, okay, are they gonna draft a key this round? Or am I gonna get I'm gonna am I gonna be the first person to play a key this round? And the turn order very much matters, you know. If if a couple people are going before you, you don't see what they draft until it's their turn to reveal it. And so yeah, I I love this one. It's it's very uh very spicy, um, even though it has constant, you know, dopamine hits of like combos and points you're getting. It's it's got teeth, and so I'm I definitely appreciate Millie Fiore.

SPEAKER_01: 37:47

Yeah. Okay. So now we have our top 12. And for those listening, it's Tigris and Euphrates, the llama suite of games, Lost Cities, Siege of Rune Dar, Quest for El Dorado, Raw, Modern Art, Blue Lagoon, Zoo Vatis, Mlem, uh, Beowulf slash Ego, and Mili Fiori. So, where do you guys want to start with cuts?

SPEAKER_02: 38:12

Where where is this where is this going? Where is this going?

SPEAKER_01: 38:16

It's going in on the Mount Rushmore of Kenitia games. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02: 38:20

Yeah, but it's going in Germany. He's from Germ. He's from Germany, right?

SPEAKER_01: 38:23

Oh where are we building this?

SPEAKER_02: 38:25

Yeah, where's it going?

SPEAKER_01: 38:27

We'll build it right next to the current Mount Rushmore.

SPEAKER_00: 38:31

Yes. Love it. There you go. Just stack it on top.

SPEAKER_01: 38:35

Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Um, so I am proposing that we maybe start with picking kind of going by uh genreslash mechanism. So I see that we have a couple of different uh bidding games, auction games. Um we've got some press your luck games. I don't I don't know. Where what do you guys think? Is are there any that are jumping out to you as like, no, we don't need those, or though that one must move up?

SPEAKER_04: 39:06

I think you have to I think you have to make a choice between the auction games, okay, raw, modern art. I don't really want to throw ego in that lot because that's you know you gotta do what you gotta do, right?

SPEAKER_00: 39:21

Yeah, I mean that's yeah if you go with like the most popular game that like I don't know, I guess it depends on what's our criteria for like what deserves to be in the Mount Rush more, right? Like if you go with what are what do we want to show people that just like blows their socks away and is most likely to to make them go down the rabbit hole of even more Kenitsi games, then in my mind, Ra is the one that has like stood the test of time and modern art to some extent has as well. Like that game has like a bajillion different language editions, which is really a really cool. Like, I think there was a muse museum for that game, even at one point, which which um gives it, you know, there's an argument for putting it on. Rushmore, like if it has its own museum um setup, right? Um, but yeah, there's so many different language versions of that. But um for me, like especially for hobbyist gamers, like Raw has just been so hot since it's uh the release of the new version, and um it's one of my top three Kenesias. So if you're gonna ask me, I'm I'm pointing at Ra, but I want to hear what your guys' take is because these are these are tough choices, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 40:23

Yeah, I think we could probably all agree on putting Raw through to the top eight. I think if we take a vote right now, you've got Clay saying yes, Nick saying yes, Jared put it on the top 12, Travis. Yeah, I do love Raw. Ra's making it through.

SPEAKER_01: 40:39

I we and I I don't think we have to get down to one auction game right now. Like eight gives us a little bit of wiggle room where we can at least have the discussion about modern art next time if we want to move modern art up. And I think if we're aiming for the most important, being like it has impacted other games, it has impacted other designs, people have drawn inspiration from those games, modern art might move up to top eight, anyways.

SPEAKER_02: 41:06

Yeah, and if you just hearing you say that, maybe we cut I hate to say it, Llamas. It was cute, and it was an honor to have you on top 12, but I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 41:20

I don't know if I could make it to the eight. Devil's Advocate, this is like your if if you have your family over who never plays games and all they know is Uno. This in my mind is like this is what Uno should be, right?

SPEAKER_04: 41:33

Or this is what Uno should be.

SPEAKER_00: 41:35

Yeah, like Uno has sold just absolute gangbusters, they're in the millions of copies sold. And like when I look at Uno, I'm like, I'd rather just play llama, or if somebody suggested me Uno, I'd be like, no, we're playing it, we're playing llama because it actually has that interesting twist of like, when do I pass, or should I pass, or should I stay in? Outside of that, it's like a very dumb game, right? But there's there is there are layers to it, and there's like a clever enough twist within its simplicity that it's like, yeah, this is this is pretty good, right? Um, but yeah, I can see like a lot of hobbyist gamers, you know, they're not gonna be fans of llama because it's just very light.

SPEAKER_02: 42:11

It's so light, but it still does have such good decisions, even though it's so simple. It's so that's what's so beautiful about it. That's um so sad. Because I just keep reading up and down this list, and it's beautiful. I would like to what we've done, boys.

SPEAKER_00: 42:26

It's a good list.

SPEAKER_04: 42:27

Yeah, let's leave let's table llama for a second. I would like to make a formal pitch to the group that no no bias here, but I'd like to push Lost Cities through the top eight. I yeah, can we okay? I I think it's important.

SPEAKER_01: 42:41

Yep, yeah, second that it is important. Okay, can we can we push modern art to the top eight? Is it worth discussing that versus raw? Or is like raw stands alone as the model of auction games for Kenizia? So something that he does gr very well. I was about to put high society on here as well. Shoot, yeah. He has some awesome auction bidding games. Is modern art worth moving up to eight?

SPEAKER_00: 43:14

I think if it I think if it goes up, it's like seven or eight for me. Just because Ra's already on there. Um that's that's just my take. Like I think it's uh it's a maybe depending on how much space is left.

SPEAKER_01: 43:25

But I mean we're we're only cutting four and llamas already hit the cutting room floor. So do we move it up and see if it holds? Sure. Okay. Boom. We're at three. Raw lost cities and modern art. What else needs to move up?

SPEAKER_04: 43:43

I think quest for El Dorado. Um I'm all in on that. I think again, you shocked me when you told me that Kenizia doesn't have a single game in the top 100. I think if there was ever a game of his to make it, it should be the quest for El Dorado, or I want it to be, because I just think it's it's the game I people more people need to play. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:04

I think this one's close um to the top 100, actually. Let's see, it's it's one of his top ranked games. Um yeah, 121. So there's just just kick out like 21 other garbage games in the top 100. That shouldn't be too hard.

SPEAKER_04: 44:18

Yeah, there's plenty of those.

SPEAKER_00: 44:19

Naked for El Dorado. I'm kidding. It's fine. Everybody has different tastes. So we're a beautiful, you know, spectrum of of opinions. Yeah, a kaleidoscope of preferences. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 44:34

Um, okay. I think Tigris and Euphrates needs to move up.

SPEAKER_00: 44:40

Yeah, definitely. I I second that.

SPEAKER_01: 44:43

Okay. Any other any like hesitancy on Tigris and Euphrates? I can't say no to that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 44:49

To me, TNE is like that should last, like, you know, when the apocalypse happens and people are still playing Go because that's just like it's what's been around and chess, they've been around since the dawn of time. Like, I feel like Tigers and Euphrates deserves to be right next to those. That's kind of my take on that game.

SPEAKER_02: 45:06

But can we whip up a BGA of Tigris and Euphrates? Because I need uh yeah, I know. But can we get a game going? Let's get it.

SPEAKER_01: 45:16

We should, yeah. All right, all right. We've got five on the top eight so far. Raw, Lost Cities, Modern Art, Quest for Eldorado, and Tigris and Euphrates. What are our last three?

SPEAKER_04: 45:26

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00: 45:30

I I vote I vote we pushed Milem through just yes, it's such a mess. I know I know it's kind of new, and I don't I don't personally love the the the look of it, I guess I suppose is how you put it. Like, yeah, I I guess it it definitely um has sold better. Like I can't talk bad about it in any way because it's sold better than anything I've published. And like um, yeah, it's it's such a good game though. I feel like um Reiner has this affinity for dice and for push your luck, and Milem just elevates that because it brings everybody together. Like you care about it's one person's doing the rolling, but like it affects you. If you're in that ship, then you're like, all right, please don't mess this up, even though they have no control over it, right? And then as soon as you jump out, you're like, please just blow up. I want to see you all just like turn into balls of fire. That would be hilarious. And like in either either perspective, it's just so enthralling. I love M.

SPEAKER_04: 46:26

Oh my god, yeah. You just get me fired up just talking about it. I I mean Jared was rolling so many afterburners, you wouldn't believe it. I never, I mean, we would get almost to deep space, and that guy hadn't lost a die yet. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_02: 46:38

Oh, yeah. Hot hands, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 46:42

So for the OG and crew, I think Nick is being a bit modest and has not pushed Zuvadis or Ego. I think one of those seems to move up for sure. Nick decide.

SPEAKER_00: 46:53

Oh me decide. I think it's Zuvadis then. Like ego, ego is one of my top 10 like games I've ever played as far as my experience, but Zuvatis is as well. And I think Zubatis is definitely the more popular of the two, but it's also the more unique. I don't know, they're both pretty unique, but like this is negotiation we're talking about, and like um, yeah, I mean it it offers a very different kind of interaction with people than what you get with any pretty much any other Kenesia game, which is cool to see.

SPEAKER_01: 47:21

Yeah, absolutely. I love that like kind of above the table type stuff that occurs during uh zoo. It makes it spicy in a good way. Good spice. Um, okay, we got one more spot. Right now we're sitting at Raw, Lost Cities, Modern Art, Quest for Aldorado, Tigris and Euphrates, Mlem, and Zoo Vodis.

SPEAKER_04: 47:41

Listen, Travis, I want to I want to circle back to Llama. I think Kanizia does make a ton of swift little card games, and I think this just might be the epitome of that genre that I want people to know about. I mean, that's me personally. Maybe a whole suite. Yeah, he's got so many little card games. I mean, I was just playing Poison the other day with Jared again, and I love that game too. But there's so many card games that are just a fun, light, good time, and I don't want those to be forgotten about in the midst of such heavy affair like Lem.

SPEAKER_01: 48:21

Okay. Big boys. Are we wanting to show a breadth of design and do like route building Blue Lagoon or I I know that you guys don't love Siege of Rundar. I think it's important in his suite of designs because he doesn't do anything like that. And I think it shows a little bit of breadth in the good doctor's ability to design unique games.

SPEAKER_04: 48:46

If I was going a co-op game for Kenitsia, I would go Lord of the Rings. Yeah, okay. That that's old.

SPEAKER_00: 48:55

Definitely been more impactful, right? Of the two. Um Siege of Rune Dar, I think it was like super hot when it was first announced, and then like it kind of just dropped off quickly from at least from what I've observed. But like, yeah, it's such a cool design. I can I can see the the desire to push it up, but yeah, Lord of the Rings is probably the more the more impactful of the two, even though it it probably hasn't aged as well. No.

SPEAKER_01: 49:17

Okay, so I picked incorrectly. I get it. Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 49:20

Get out of here, Travis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:23

Well, those that don't love siege are fake fans, okay? You guys don't like Reiner Keniti at all. Um, okay. Blue Lagoon question mark. I would have to.

SPEAKER_04: 49:37

Yeah, go ahead. No, I would, I would to me, the one that's moving up is between ego, blue lagoon, or llama at this point.

SPEAKER_01: 49:47

So the other three that we have left.

SPEAKER_04: 49:49

Yes. Well, Millie Fiori. I'm not I'm not considering that.

SPEAKER_01: 49:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 49:56

Yeah. I mean, my two picks would actually probably be um Millie Fiore or Llama, personally. Just because like Llama is just like none of the most of these games in our top eight, you know, I can't really show I can't really play these with my grandma or with my niece or whatever, or with my mom even. Um, you know, Milama, I definitely can teach that to anybody. And and then if I if I push hard enough, I can get them into some of these other ones. But um yeah, those llamas llamas like if you want the the um that side of of Reiner's design style, like the family weight, light casual card game, then that's that's a great choice. Milifuel is is very popular. Um so I could see an argument for that.

SPEAKER_01: 50:43

It's probably I'm gonna pose a counter argument. Do we already have like a lighter style game in Millem? Like, should we pull up Millie Fuel game? It's big box. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 50:57

We need a small box game on the list. Sure. That's my that's my take. Nick, just out of curiosity, do you have a a lot like a better embodiment of a light small box, you know, fun, silly card game that you like from Kenizia? I mean, llama's the one that we've played a lot and that I hear people talk about. I know there's a million more.

SPEAKER_02: 51:26

Jump in our eyes.

SPEAKER_04: 51:27

Yeah. Is there one that you think should be on this list instead of Llama?

SPEAKER_02: 51:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 51:31

Um I could this your chance to push one straight to the top eight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:37

Jump. The uh the sneak attack, right? The uh yeah. I mean, I could see an argument for high society, but again, that's like, no, we've got three auction games on the list, but it's it's a banger. I mean, it's very good small box card game. Um and that's arguably one that you could teach anybody. Like it's it's very straightforward. Um obviously more rules going on than llama. I'm not gonna play that with my six-year-old compared to llama, but yeah. Um yeah, I don't know. I'm I'm happy with llama, but I'm happy with one, you know, this is a pretty solid list. So if there's one you guys want to push up from the top 12, that's that's totally fine. Yeah, I I think three auction games on the top eight. I mean, Reiner is, in my opinion, the greatest auction designer of all time. So it's like it makes sense if there's that many on there, but also he um subtly has so many others. Okay, here's here's my wild horse. Here's my yeah, oh yeah. This is not an auction game. This is not a card game. This is Viking Seesaw. That's that's gonna be my if you're if you want to consider like a dark horse recommendation. My pick is Viking Seesaw because it's just like the more I play it, the more I'm like, why do I play any other stacking games? Like this is it's small, it's compact, and then it's it's got that spicy element of like, I don't know if you guys have played this, but uh it's um it's got a seesaw and you have to add to the high-end, and you have different weights and different textures of materials, like you have a metal cube and you have a very light but like very uh uneven gem and a light wood meeple and stuff. And it's like, what do I add to it's kind of like Uno, you're trying to get rid of all your pieces in front of you, but you you get to decide which one you add next. And if you add something that's a little too heavy, or if you put it in the wrong spot where physics causes it to tilt, then you have to take something from the middle, or if you cause it to topple, it's even worse. So um, yeah, I'd say it sounds like maybe not with you guys since you haven't tried it, but that's gonna be my recommendation to try out after this. Is uh I'll play actually. Um, they brought over the It and Fun Brick series and they're selling it from their website. I don't know if it's in stock right now. Yeah, FYI.

SPEAKER_04: 53:46

So I looked at I was at PAX Unplugged and I went to their booth and I saw the other fun bricks, and I was looking for Viking Seesaw because I've heard people talk about it. Yeah, and I did not see it at PAX Unplugged, but now that I know the thing.

SPEAKER_00: 54:02

No, I think honestly, they probably didn't have enough stock to bring, is my guess. They may not even have enough in stock in the US at this point, but hopefully they bring more over because that's it's such a good game. And actually, if you ask Joe, the uh the owner of I'll play too, he that's one of his top Kenizi games. Really? Wow. It's not just me who recommends it, but um, yeah, it says it's sold out right now, so hopefully they uh they bring over more. So sorry to sorry to break your hearts like that. But uh that sounds awesome. Um no, I think we stick with the top 12. You guys haven't played Viking Seesaw, we probably don't need another auction game. I'll let you guys fight it over because I I have my opinions are too strong.

SPEAKER_01: 54:39

That's why we brought you on, because we need it. Yes. Um well I'm hearing from the rest of the crew that llama should be pushed through. That's gonna be that's my vote. That was Jared's original vote. Nick didn't have any major qualms, so Llama? Llama. Llama top eight.

SPEAKER_03: 54:59

Lama Llama.

SPEAKER_01: 55:01

All right. Here we go. Uh our top eight, for those listening, are Ra, Lost Cities, Modern Art, Quest for El Dorado, Tigris and Euphrates, Lem, Zuvodis, and the Llama Suite. So, final four. What are we going to be carving into stone as the Reiner Kenitia Mount Rushmore? What's it gonna be? What is jumping out at you? What should we cut?

SPEAKER_04: 55:35

Quest for El Dorado. I think we're pushing Quest for Eldorado again, nice.

SPEAKER_00: 55:39

I just sorry. I felt like Nick, any major qualms about Quest for El Dorado? No, I mean, like I shared, it's it's had such a good impact on kind of the modern side of Kenizia fandom and Kenitsia board games. And um yeah, I mean it stands out to me. It's one of my favorite racing games, it's one of my favorite deck builders. Um, and I think he definitely he set out to make something unique within the deck building genre, and he actually did. And um, so yeah, I'm I'm a big fan. No qualms here.

SPEAKER_01: 56:10

Nice quest for El Dorado is gonna be our first game on the Mount Rushmore.

SPEAKER_02: 56:17

Okay, it feels too much like Lost Ruins of Our Neck without the research track that I just love it so much. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:27

Okay, I I like the blocking the interaction part of it.

SPEAKER_04: 56:30

So what else? Should we just make the call? I think it's inevitable that a raw or modern art's going up.

SPEAKER_00: 56:44

I enjoyed it. But I want to I want to have that conversation. Yeah, yeah. I didn't come prepared. I don't have an example.

SPEAKER_01: 56:53

What does RAW do that is unique that modern art does not? Um what makes that one more important than modern art?

SPEAKER_00: 57:04

Yeah, I mean, I can I can see the case for modern art, and like if it ended up in the top four, I'd be like, it makes sense. You know, like I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna fight it. Um my personal take is that um modern art can get a little it can go off the tracks, and maybe that's part of the fun of it, where like if somebody just like bids way too much for something, like way more than it's worth, and then I'm over here just with like my I'm I'm like face palming over here because I'm like you are giving that person so many points right now, and I wish I was the person selling that because you're paying way too much for it, you know, and like that you can have hilarious stuff like that happen in modern art. Um, with raw, it's like you've got three or four discs, right? That's all you have to bid with. And and what's funny is like you kind of have to decide when you're gonna go hard and when you're gonna hold out. And um, it's kind of that push your luck element of and and yeah, if you if you're if you're gonna say like we can only fit one push your luck game in the final four, I would argue raw is one of Kenithia's best push your luck games as well. Because the question becomes like, when is the era going to end? And um, if it's not gonna end soon, then I need to hang on to one or two of my discs and so I can just buy stuff for cheap at the end. And that's that's like the magic of raw for me when when like you have one person left in an era, and you know, there's maybe one one raw, you know, tile that needs to come out uh for them to just get shut down and like you get nothing, you lose good day, sir, but then nothing nothing like that does come out, and then they just like fill up the whole track and they earn all of these tiles, and you're just like, I can't believe this is happening. Like it's just so funny. But then that is mixed with some of the most brilliant um bidding that I've ever seen in any game where it's like, okay, I'm gonna bid with this high tile, but now that's somebody else can win that in the next round. And maybe I'm sitting here with like absolute garbage tiles, and I have a one and a four and a five, and I'm feeling like I can't win anything. But what's funny is when your turn comes around, you can just be like, I invoke Raw, and there's almost nothing out there, and everybody else groans because they know that they're high tiles, they don't want to spend them on this, you know, very little, and you can earn really good stuff for super cheap because you have garbage tiles. And I don't know, it's just such a roller coaster of like highs and lows for me that it's brilliant, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_04: 59:21

Yeah, it's a brilliant design.

SPEAKER_01: 59:23

Yeah, yeah. I think I think the ability to like flood the market in modern art makes it it like muddies it a little bit for me. I think RAW is much cleaner of an auction game, and like you said, like that push your luck and strategery that goes into each individual like epic really shines for me. I I love both of them.

SPEAKER_04: 59:46

Oh yeah, Nick Nick really said more eloquently what I was bouncing around about about how if people don't understand that that that painting could not possibly Be worth this much at the end of the round, even under the best circumstances, and they pay more for that paint. Like I we've all seen it happen, and it does kind of you know, it throws the game for a bit of a loop. Ra's just tighter.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:14

Yeah, it's like if somebody blows their sun discs, then they're just out of the round, and it's like, all right, you're gone. Now we can play the game. It's kind of funny. It's like somebody can spend themselves out of the air very quickly, and then they're just like they're just groaning every time the track gets really good, and they're like, Oh my gosh, I spent my stuff too soon.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:32

Yeah. And you know what happens the next time is they try and hold on to their sun discs till the end and they end up ending the epic without spending three of their sun discs.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:41

Yeah, that's right. I think I I guess that's uh an argument for modern art though, too, is like if you have a bad first epic in Raw, you're kind of like fighting from behind, and it's really hard to get back into it. Whereas modern art, because of this like unintentional king-making type thing where people are bidding more than it's worth, you have a greater chance of coming back. So, man, I I don't know, I'm kind of wringing my hands about it, but I it sounds like you guys are all in favor of Raw. I think Raw's the right answer. Okay. Alright, Raw is. Alright. Uh we got two more spots left on the final four. Any additional thoughts, any strong feelings about any of these?

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:26

Oh. It's not my favorite game. I've only played it twice, and once was at two players, and once was with Jared and Spanky, and but Tyrus and Euphrates, I've wanted to d dig into that game just based on its reputation. I mean, uh reputation alone and then Nick's obvious, you know, he's actually played it and can speak for the depth and brilliance of it. Um I I don't think we could look ourselves in the mirror tomorrow and not have Tigris Euphrates on here. I mean, we could be the podcast that put out the Mount Rushmore of Kenizia with Llama and then Llama Dice and those the last two slots. Yeah, llama, llama the card game, and llama dice.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:19

There there would be a small need to be a two llamas where like that's a good choice.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:23

Yeah, these guys get it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:25

These guys get it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:27

Oh man. All right, so Nick, give us an eloquent pitch as to why Tigris and Euphrates is important in Brenner Kenizia's catalog.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:35

Yeah, well, I will mention, yeah, two two players is not not the strongest version of that. So yeah, I'd say if you're gonna play the game three or four, it's is definitely the way to go. Um, but tigers and euphrates, man, they're like you talk about Kinesia games having layers. This one is like it goes into another dimension of layers where like I think people initially um they might feel overwhelmed by like, I don't know what to do, or I don't know what the right move is. And then I'm over here like you know, on my I don't know what it is, 20th play. Like, I haven't played it. There's there's so many people out there who've played this over hundreds of times and they're still um you know mastering it. And um this is a game where I don't know, it it's like four-player chess in a sense, where um a lot of it comes down to what do I have hidden behind my screen, my tiles, and like how do I make the most of this? And then it has that brilliant uh element of scoring where you your your final score is whatever color you have the least of. You know, it's like the whoever has the most of their least. And um, what that does is so smart because I may have this huge kingdom, right? Where I am just I have these monuments set up and I'm raking in all of these red points, and people are like, man, Nick is just crushing us. But if I have made, if I only have two blue points behind my screen, then my current score is two, right? And when you realize, like, oh shoot, I need to pivot hard, like it doesn't matter how many, it doesn't matter if I have 20 bajillion red at the end of the game, my score is two right now. Yeah, and um, that's what's cool is it it kind of pushes you outside your comfort zone where you're like, okay, the best way for me to get blue right now is to try and start a revolt against you. And I don't know if I can take you down, but this is my only shot. Like, I'm desperate to get these blues, right? And and so it it creates these um scenarios of like desperation where somebody comes up against another person or they're they're just like they're biding their time, right? It gives you enough time to build up your supply of a certain tile color until you feel comfortable enough where you're like, I think I can take them on, you know? And then you finally initiate the battle, and that's where you know the the rubber meets the road and and you see like, do I have enough to take them down? And I don't know, just when you when you connect two huge kingdoms and you see the conflict that ensues and the the um the consequences that result from that, like it's it's so cool because like the person who initiates the conflict, they get to decide who fights first. And if they, you know, if they can kind of like read the table a bit then and figure out like, okay, if I can get this side to win, then that's gonna weaken this other color on this side, and that's gonna help me in this third battle that's gonna happen in this conflict. And like, oh man, it's it's so cool. I don't know. You you see like a conflict just blow up one kingdom and then one person rakes in 15 points or something crazy like that, and then that's when you're like, man, this game is special. Like there are a lot of highs and a lot of lows to it, but um, if you dig into it, I don't know, it's it's it's my number one game of all time, so yeah, you're not gonna see me uh you're not gonna pitch against it right now.

SPEAKER_04: 1:05:50

I'm not gonna pitch against it. That's great.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:52

So yeah, I mean I'd say you guys mentioned BGA, like BGA is a good good place to to dig into it and um and learn more. Like even I'll I'll um shamelessly plug the Randy Kenizia Discord server. Um if you guys aren't part of that, I can shoot you uh uh an invitation.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:10

Please do.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:10

Yeah, they'll they'll set up online games and like we had a TNE tournament last year that was a lot of fun. And and so um, yeah, it's easy to find people who are happy, more than happy to play it with you. They may smoke you if they play it all the time. Yeah, but like you see things and you learn things, you're like, oh, that was very smart of you. Like, even I'm still learning, like, oh, there are strategies here I've never even considered. So very cool.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:33

What you were explaining, I don't believe Clay and I were doing at all. I I actually didn't remember playing this game. I was researching how to play it this morning because I was like, I think I want to play this game because I'm gonna talk about it tonight. Yeah, and Clay's popping off that I actually played. I don't I don't even remember playing it. So yeah, you did.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:53

We played.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:53

Did I win?

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:55

Yeah. Um I don't remember stats.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:58

We'll have to look it back up on the stats. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:02

Okay. Uh we've got one more spot left after Quest for El Dorado, Raw, and Tigris and Euphrates. Those that are not on the list are Lost Cities, Modern Art, Mlem, Zuvatis, and Llama Suite. What is going to take this last spot?

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:24

We got the easy ones out of the way. Yeah. What uh how are you leaning, Clay? What do you think? I mean, I it was my first choice, and I stand by it to all the way to Mount Rushmore, and that's Lost Cities.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:37

Loyal to the end. Okay. This one you went hard with Mary too, right?

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:42

Like, isn't this one Mary and I we have a blood feud with each other on this game?

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:47

I mean his wife and him, they this is what holds their marriage together.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:52

So it may it might hold sentimental value there, but I just I mean, any when I describe I seriously sit there, I don't even know why I play it. I don't know why I think it's so good because I literally sit there with my hand of cards. I'm like, oh god, what do I how do I take this next turn? Like, there's nothing I want to do. I don't want to play this card, I don't want to discard it, so I don't want to discard the card that my opponent can pick up that they might need. And just the whole 20-minute game is you like, how do I play a card when I don't want to play a card?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:26

And that's a that's a trademark feature of Kenitia. Like when the decisions are just agonizing, it's like I almost I don't want to take a turn right now, but I have to, but I don't want to, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:38

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Please just let me pass.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:41

Yeah, yeah. Well, he he even mentioned, like, I mentioned it to him, and he's like, Oh, yeah, I've heard that all the time. Um, that this is like the go-to, like everybody says this about Lost Cities. They're like, this is the game you play with your significant other, right? And um, so I think it's it's definitely like for couples out there, if you're looking for something, it's hard to recommend a game better than than Lost Cities.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:03

And the Lost Cities dice game is really good too. The dice drafting to fill out the little roll and write pad, man. Yeah, there's all same types of mechanics, but it's really sharp. I love it. It's a good travel game.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:17

I still think Lost Cities is the best of the bunch, but yeah, there's some really good spin-offs of this.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:22

It's two-player only. We don't have any of those on there. That's true. Not that I find that to be a particularly important genre or uh category of game, but yeah, for the sake of you know, yes, what way I'm leaning. I'm I'm making my pitch for Lost Cities. So, you know, somebody else, what do you Jared? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:41

You know, we don't have any animals on the list either here. So there's cats or llamas, you know, or peacocks slash oh Zuvadas, all the animals, maybe. I'll say when I played Zuvadis, um, it was about a year ago at this point, I was I wasn't in the right headspace, and it was very difficult to make uh inebriation status. Um, I couldn't make the trade-offs in the right uh manner. So I need to give Zuvadis another hit, honestly.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:20

Yeah, and and Clay does have it, so I do, and I was very excited to play it with you. I was like because you like you said, Nick, this is you need the right group that's gonna be willing to wheel and deal. Jared, he is historically a wheeler and dealer. You should see this guy play bonanza. I mean, he's trading stink beans at for you know lima beans at whatever price, and so I was like, man, this game's gonna be awesome. I've enjoyed playing it. My kids love playing Zubatis, and I was like, this is gonna be a hoot with Jared, but it had just gotten too far into the night. It was too late.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:53

Do you need to hit me early? Hit me early. Yeah, it I I I've heard plenty of stories of like this was one of the worst gaming experiences I've ever had, and like I think it does come down to like the group, right? Some people can really derail the game. Um, but like I've had some of the highest highs I've ever had in board gaming playing it too, so I think it can go both ways. Yeah, I'll give it another shot. I I'll give it another shot. Yeah, you should. But yeah, it doesn't have to be in the top four. There's there's a lot of good picks here in the in the top eight. So uh Nick, what are you leaning towards? Oh man, I'm pretty happy, honestly, with El Dorado, Ron, Tigers, and Euphrates. Like, yeah, I feel like you know, I've I've done my part, you know, keeping you guys from from going too off the rails. That's like a dynamite list. Um yeah, but what's left over? I'll I'll throw out a few and let you guys figure out what you want. Like, I'd say Lost Cities is a great pick. Um, I'd say what do we have? Milen. Melan, I I wouldn't argue with Milan. I don't know. They're all good.

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:57

My heart says Milem, but I I I just feel like it's it uh it's hasn't stood the test of time yet, you know. Yeah, yeah. But this thing, I mean, I I'm I'm willing to stake my reputation as an amateur podcaster on the fact that Milem will stand the test of time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:18

Yeah, this goes into the side of a mountain, Clayton.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:21

Yeah, so yeah. I mean, I did list it as the best game of the year that my like top ten games of the year. That was my number one game that year. So uh I'm not gonna argue with you, but yeah, I mean it's kitty's on the board. You want mlem? Are we going mlem?

SPEAKER_04: 1:12:38

Listen, if I was picking my favorite game left over, it'd be Melem, obviously.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:42

Probably Lem. All right, Nick and Equalms with Melem.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:45

No, and and for people who are like, well, what about the two-player gamers among us? I will mention like Quest for El Dorado is excellent at two players. And even Ra's is pretty decent at two players. So, like, if you if you still want you know something to serve that audience, you can't go wrong with El Dorado. Um, I don't know if the other ones I would reach for if I just had two of us, but um Lem's great.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:09

Dang on Mount Rushmore, I could not be happier to see it there. Oh, this is all right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:14

That is amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:16

We have it, our Mount Rushmore of Rainer Kenizia games being Quest for El Dorado, Raw, Tigris and Euphrates, and Melem, the newcomer. Yes. Now we're going to equate each of these to presidents. That'd be really embarrassing for me. That's it. Oh man. Look, look for the new Mount Rushmore on top of the old Mount Rushmore coming 2050. Yes. Awesome. Yes. All right. Uh, so that is our Mount Rushmore of Reiner Kenizia Games. Thank you, Nick, for joining us. Um, we have kept you long enough, but before we go, give a shout-out for Bytewing and any anything you want to mention that you're working on or any shout-outs you want to give.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:00

Yeah, no, I just want to say thank you guys again for having me. It was super fun just chatting, chatting games and getting to know you. And um, of course, I'm always happy to talk about Keniza games, big fan here. Um, yeah, I mean, but as far as Bytewing goes, we had kind of the craziest year we've ever had. We were at more conventions we've ever been to. We had more releases than we've ever done in a single year. Um, we're actually probably gonna release less games next year just for our sanity and and uh you know to narrow the focus a bit and tighten the budget a bit, I suppose. But um yeah, I guess for for those of you who are drawn in by the Kenizia topic, um when when is this episode supposed to go live? It'll be Tuesday. Yeah, Tuesday, very soon. Okay, so then yeah, the timing of this, like uh, I guess keep an eye out. Here's a teaser, keep an eye out for an announcement from us in early January. If you're a Kenizia fan, it's gonna be it's gonna be a big one, and I'm very excited about it. Um, yeah, the Kenizia train is still going with us. I will admit we had six Kenizia releases this year, which is just bonkers. Like, it was funny being at Pax and some people would walk up and be like, Oh, yeah, I like Rainer Kenizia, and I'd be like, Yeah, these six games are all brand new releases from him. Like, yeah, we are a little bit psychotic. Um, it just the scheduling, it it was weird, it just happened that way. But um, yeah, so that one of our only Kenizia releases next year, we're gonna reveal in January, early January, right after the holidays. So um, yeah, I'm super excited. It's gonna feel like big box classic Kenizia to a lot of folks. And um, yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be a fun one. It's definitely one I'm I'm looking forward to pulling the curtain on. So does it rhyme with schmoo gaffoon?

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:43

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hey, we're not gonna be jumping in anything here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:48

Nice. Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:51

Yeah, that's an instant pre-order. I love it. Yeah, seriously. I I don't even ask any more Bitewing. Yeah, I've think I've gotten every single one of your guys' uh Kickstarters. So yeah, like I said before, I'm a fan. I'm so happy you came on here.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:05

Yeah, yeah, we definitely have a style. I think if you like, you know, if you like Kenitsu games, then you're gonna like most of what we're putting out. It's just a lot of what we publish is just games that interest me personally, you know, and and same for like Kyle, the other co co-founder. Um, it's just stuff we like playing and that we love enough that we're like, yeah, we want to spend our energy and effort on you know bringing this to more people, and the whole process is a lot of fun. So yeah, I mean if you want to follow what we're doing, you can just you can find us at byweinggames.com. We have social media pages, we have a newsletter, all that good stuff. But um, yeah, I I do appreciate you guys having me on. It's it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:42

And you have a podcast as well.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:45

So yes, the podcast is it's slowed down a bit. This year's been a little hectic, but yeah, I am I'm I'm plugging away at my top games of 2025, so that'll definitely be a thing that comes out. It's also hard when like when I started the podcast, I uh I would talk about games like from a reviewer perspective. And um, when you start meeting the people whose games you're reviewing, you'd be like, oh yeah, I didn't like that game very much. And then you then you feel bad, you know. It's like when you start m putting faces to the games, it's like, yeah, it's probably better if I if I don't like put down games now that I'm especially being from the other side of it. Like you you see people put down your own games and you're like, oh man, I love this game. Yeah, you know, but that's part of I think that's just part of being part of the hobby. Like everybody has unique tastes. Um, and it's okay if somebody hates one or all of my games. Like, there's so many different games out there that um my take is that like people who say I don't board game because I don't like board games, it's like, well, you just haven't found the right game yet. There's something for everybody. And I think Kenitsia is a good designer who has such a broad spectrum of genres that he's had his hands in and he's done an amazing job with that. Um, yeah, if you came to me and said, like, hey, I only like this specific genre of game, I could probably find a Kenizia game for you that would fit your style.

SPEAKER_04: 1:18:02

So that's awesome. That'll be our next episode with you. We're gonna like put you on the spot and and come with these crazy questions. Give me the Kenitsia game for when my cat's sick and I'm trying to impress the neighbor.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:16

There you go. Oh man, just under my arm and I'm playing in a sling, and it's a Tuesday and it's snowing outside. What game do I play? I love it. I love it. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you again, Nick, for joining us. We are so honored that you were able to take the time and sit down with us and talk, Kenitya, a designer that we love very much. And uh man, I'm excited for these future Bitewing releases because you guys have been killing it over there. You guys are doing great work and doing awesome stuff for the board gaming community. So thank you a thousand times over. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:47

Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:48

All right. This has been Operation Game Night with our Mount Rushmore of Kennya Games. I have been Travis, he has been Clay, he has been Jared, he has been the one and only Nick Murray from Bytewing Games, and we are out.